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Turtles on the warpath

Discussion in 'General BS No One Cares About But You' started by Captain Slapdash, Apr 2, 2009.

  1. Captain Slapdash

    Captain Slapdash New Member

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    So heres the thing. Its quite interesting to see/hear the pretty vicious reactions and responses to such when accusations of team turtling start flying on the Warpath server.

    Over the last few evenings Ive ended up on both sides of the of the abuse and just fail to see the problem. While it is satisfying to have constant end to end flow I personally like the challenge in trying to dig a team out of its hole. Surely there is no greater challenge in trying to breakdown a well entrenched team? Just as it is great to finally break out of such a situation after holding out under intense attack.

    What I found hard to understand was the bad grace such situations caused if a team had been turtling and then lost. The victors did a great job in finally capturing the last point after a long battle and rightly won. To follow this with abuse just seems odd since they had just cracked the ultimate challenge from where I stood.

    Now this is just a personal view on what Im guessing is/will be a hot topic. Possibly I just havent been on here long enough to get tired of trying to get a turtle to poke its head out ;)

    Id did a quick search on the forum and didnt see this as a thread on its own (apologies if I missed it and am doing a necro)
     
  2. SuperStar

    SuperStar New Member

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    The objective of Warpath is to capture control points. To me, when I consider a team as "turtles" it is when there is no effort to push out beyond the arches and they sit back with three snipers, four engies and a bunch of spamming demos. There will also be two demo's who usually do nothing but put stickies on the final points and right click anytime someone is on the control point. There obviously needs to be a defense set up but when a team lacks any offensive push it defeats the purpose of the map. Too often this happens and the map ends up going on for 30 minutes then goes into sudden death. IMO it is much easier for the team who has decided to turtle to push out and capture their second cp then it is for the other team to capture the final point.


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  3. Defy

    Defy Guest

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    Sometimes its kind of weak when a team defending the last point makes no effort to even try to push out. Instead they just circle jerk each other for 30mins or whatever time is left. It just shows a lack of team work on your end. How ever in some cases I don't blame the other team if they're just getting rolled and don't really stand a chance at all. :mrgreen:
     
  4. Captain Slapdash

    Captain Slapdash New Member

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    A good point SuperStar.

    How practical do you think a tactic is in trying to draw a turtling team out but effectively setting up teleporters/ defences on the middle CP and faking a retreat? Once you've dropped back and the turtling team comes starts to move up (because attackers appears weak) you counter against hopefully less complete defenses.

    Hard to construct I'm sure but do you think it's impossible? It would certainly require a high degree of organization on the attackers part and could certainly backfire but may be a quicker way to break down the turtle and just constant brute force.

    No effort to come out would certainly be a problem Defy but it would be surprising to find a team just stick to there last CP if the attackers had withdrawn.

    Obviously I've given this tactic (if possible) away but the idea is still good.

    CS
     
  5. Defy

    Defy Guest

    Honestly it all depends on your team...

    I've been in situations (as well as a bunch of other people) where we would just be on the last point and then just push out and roll the other team back completely. Which makes for a pretty climatic win. :mrgreen:

    It's all about just organizing your shit and working together...communicate well and the results will be a hell of a lot better then you expected. Any team can push out of the last point really as long as they work as a team.

    When people shit talk after the other team has been turtling for so long its all in good fun and not meant to be taken seriously.
     
  6. Captain Slapdash

    Captain Slapdash New Member

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    :smile: I don't have too much problem with the abuse (only the lack of it's originality :wink: )

    I was just more surprised that the situation wasn't seen as a good challenge.

    Possibly I need to look for some sort of King of the Castle map where the object is to either to totally sit on a point or two storm a single location.
     
  7. Do Work Son

    Do Work Son New Member

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    Ubered Pyros are a great way to break out of the final point around the corner where the offensive sentries are usually located. Then when a Heavy runs his gigantic Russian ass up on top of the bridge to the second point...

    The biggest problem facing a turtling team is the number of engineers. You'll take back your second point, a few people will be pushing towards mid...

    ...and four engineers are trying build teleporters to the second point.
     
  8. Guest

    I was in a match the other day where we were on the last point, defending. Even if some teams think we're turtling, we really did our best to hold the point so that we didn't lose (I usually am on the losing team xD). We don't often circle jerk or whatever, we're just doing our best to fend off the opposing team. The teams I've been on have tried pushes but really it's to no avail. If we can hold the last point we will. We ended up going into overtime with snipers and when the other team came in we destroyed them by using the same tactic, waiting for them to come in and sitting on top of everything then jumping down and killing them one by one.

    It's teamwork to turtle the right way.
     
  9. Ragnarok-RgB

    Ragnarok-RgB New Member

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    I completely agree, when getting rolled, your main objective becomes to try and defend as well as you can, and sometimes that means 3-4 engies at the last point, and its not usually sitting around waiting, its fighting waves and waves of ubers and spy caps.
     
  10. m0nk3y420

    m0nk3y420 New Member

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    sounds like you need some 2fort ... lol
    there's always a turtle or 2 on any 2fort map :lol:
     
  11. Aix

    Aix Senior Server Admin
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    I find this is the difference between "playing to win" and "playing not to lose". I was in one of those hour-long turtle fests recently and the trash talk afterward (from the winning team) is basically a "screw you for making us go through all that" :wink: .

    I was in two of these games back-to-back; we did it to them the first game and then they did it to us the very next game! Winning a game like that is probably the best feeling in TF2, for my money. I find that a good push with stacked uber/kritz will knock the other team back, or at least fuck 'em up (uber first, followed immediately by kritz for cleanup).

    The biggest problem for a turtling team is that a lot of players don't know how to push in with an uber...they just repeatedly send two players out to the fence.
     
  12. stock

    stock New Member

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    I find this a lot more fun than sitting in control of mid for 20mins while your team fails miserably and someone breaks the wood, maybe even the 'concrete' wall. The massive engi rush to 2nd, or first if you're feeling really mean, followed by the slow, planned shift to the best offensive counter for what the opponent is bringing. Teamwork: max

    Oh, and dancing on your sentry after a domination! :twisted:
     
  13. Captain Slapdash

    Captain Slapdash New Member

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    :grin: 2Fort is nearly there in terms of King of the Hill\Castle\Outcrop\Thing although there is still meant to be a need for splitting your side into offense and defense.

    I was wondering about the just having purely an attacking side and a defending side and a fixed time limit. Aka an UberTurtle map!

    What could be more exhilarating than trying to stave off an attack by a side playing like a bunch of well armed psychotic foaming lemmings in search of a good cliff while you desperately defend with as many engies as you could cram into an Escalade?

    As for the crazed lemmings what could be more satisfying than managing to crowbar out the defenders like the worst kind of explosive limpets (some good mental imagery to work with there)

    Anyway, getting back to the warpath turtle thing; its probably not the most surprising statement to say that, apart from a few lucky breaks, the most organized side wins. It becomes easier to organize a defending side when youre down to your last CP. People tend to know what to do but maybe cant organize/dont have the experience to effectively break out. So turtling might not be some sort of malicious act of mindlessness on the part of the defenders, just a lack of organization. Maybe not worth the abuse.

    CS
     
  14. Chewy

    Chewy New Member

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    Waaa? :?:
     
  15. wrathofbong

    wrathofbong New Member

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    IMO Turtling happens on the macro and micro level. If a person is sitting in the garage popping in and out to kill one or two people to retreat back into a garage for 3 minutes to let the small health-pack reload, he is turtling. If a team as a whole has not made a single attempt to recapture the fourth point (i.e. one spy that keeps trying to capture the fourth point DOES NOT count as pushing forward) they are turtling. Turtling simply means that the other team is not working together and cannot pool resources to make a successful team. There is no skill to turtling, it is panic. Now setting up a quick defense with 4 engies to build and set up is one thing, but 4+ engies are needed to hold down the final cap? Really?

    I just think that turtling is a waste of time. If the teams are matched, there will be pushing back and fourth near the fence, that isn't turtling at all. But when a team is being blown back to the fourth point and 6 engies start building on the final cap before the enemy is even close, that is just making a 15-20 minute match last 1-2 hours (taking into account that a scout or a spy could get lucky and cap the fourth point single- handedly adding 20 more minutes each time). Not needed, and completely unnecessary. Lose fair and square and start over. Dont have 6 fucking engies.

    /end rant
     
  16. Aix

    Aix Senior Server Admin
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    Hmm, sounds like you're itching for something like Gravelpit or Steel? I don't know if they'd provide you with enough turtle power but they are attack/defend maps. I'm sure there has to be other a/d maps out there too.

    The abuse is always good-natured I think; I mean, there's a good chance you'll be playing with a lot of the opposing team during the next round! Unless someone is targeting a specific person or uttering slurs then I think you gotta suck it up...after all, you just sucked it up for 30+ minutes! :eek: :lol:

    EDIT: WrathOfBong just summed up exactly how I feel. Look up :roll: there.
     
  17. Captain Slapdash

    Captain Slapdash New Member

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    True enough :oops:

    Not particularly bothered by it. It was just quite surprising the first time I heard it :???:

    Will have a look at those maps somewhere
     
  18. kief__catcher

    kief__catcher Server Admin
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    well i would call that camping the spawn. i was under the impression that turtling specifically meant engies building a fortress of sentries.
    the way i see it, regardless of what point you're defending/attacking on warpath, if you have 4 or more engies, you're pretty much turtling. having 25% of your team play engie on a map that is designed for the winning team to be effective on the offensive end is sort of dumb. by the same token, however, warpath veterans are so used to the other team turtling that many times the "turtling" accusation is hurled when the other team isn't really trying to be a bunch of turtling pussies. i guess the difference is you can have turtling and still be trying to push, or you can have turtling and just focus all your efforts on defending the last cp. in the latter case, your team is a bunch of camping, turtling pussies. if you're not trying to cap the next point on warpath, then you aren't playing the map as it should be played.

    as far as the "abuse" is concerned - the shit talk plugin is installed on every one of our servers so that the winning team can trash talk after a round. ESPECIALLY when a team has overcome a 4-5-6 engie turtle do they deserve to "abuse" the camping pussies they just beat.
     
  19. Cappabitch

    Cappabitch New Member

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    Other team's turtling? Get together with a few synchronized Ubercharges and break through. If it works on 2fort, I'm sure it can work on the map where all the elite reside.
     
  20. Nick

    Nick New Member

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