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The Way of the Scout

Discussion in 'Strategy Guides' started by Darth Cyrax, Oct 29, 2008.

  1. Darth Cyrax

    Darth Cyrax New Member

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    Hello, everyone. I am Darth Cyrax and this is my thread about how to play the scout. If anyone has any HELPFUL input, please feel free to post. If you're here to flame me for making a scout thread, GO AWAY.

    That being said, here is my general philosophy about the Scout. The scout is often the hardest class to play because of his low health and generally weaker weapons. His only advantage is his speed and maneuverability. Therefore these things MUST BE USED if you want to succeed at scoutery (sounds way cooler than scouting).

    Okay- if you want to survive on No-Heroes servers as a Scout (this especially applies to Warpath) then you must first be a team player. this means-

    1.NEVER EVER (even if there are 4 teleporters all ready to go) USE A TELEPORTER. Being the fastest class in the game you can easily get to the front lines without a teleporter.
    2.Dont take the medkit if there is a medic somewhere who needs it.
    3.Dont spam the medic button. Your voice is kind of annoying and remember that you are not a medics priority heal. You get healed last.
    4.Warpath Specific-DO NOT BREAK THE WOODEN WALL. I know this is everywhere but no one can truly stress how important this is.

    Now- HOW TO PLAY THE SCOUT
    WEAPONS
    Scattergun: Easily the best weapon in the scouts pathetic arsenal. Seriously, the rest of your weapons suck. This being the only acceptable weapon, you will find yourself using it a lot. So KEEP IT LOADED. Reload whenever youre not shooting. Now, when I say acceptable I mean that this is essentially a shotgun. Its almost exactly the same, the only difference being slightly more damage and a wider spread.
    Pistol: Exactly the same as the engineers pistol except your ammo capacity sucks. You only get 4 clips of ammo so dont use unless youre out of scattergun ammo. Did I mention this weapon sucks? It BLOWS. The only good thing I can say if this weapon crits then the rest of the clip will also be critical if you keep firing.
    Bat: Easily the WORST MELEE WEAPON IN THE GAME. It way hit slightly faster but the crappy damage more than compensates for this, making it almost completely useless. Only use if youre all out of scattergun ammo/not loaded at all and the enemy is almost dead. Otherwise whip out the pistol or run away.

    SENTRY GUN/SCOUT THEOREM.
    I have this theory that as the number of sentry guns on a map increase, the usefulness of scouts decreases. This accounts for both enemy and friendly sentry guns. Scouts are best used in wide, open spaces (the middle point on Warpath), as are sentry guns. If both sides of a battle are well-fortified with sentry guns, you may have to throw in the towel and switch to another class until theyre down.

    GENERAL SCOUT STRATEGIES
    If I contradict myself later in the Class-Specific section, what I say there overrules what I say here.
    STRAFING: You are NOT a pyro. As (MP)Ryan kindly pointed out for Soldiers, W+MOUSE 1 does not work for you(and personally I dont think it works out well for pyros either). If they see you, flank them just out of melee range as this makes it harder for them to hit you and renders their melee weapon useless. NEVER run straight front or back in reference to whoever is shooting at you, you will get killed. Always try to get behind an enemy.
    SURPRISE! : If you are behind them get right behind them and FIRE AWAY! Be prepared to follow them immediately after a shot as the scattergun does have a slight knockback that close. Once again, DO NOT USE THE BAT unless you have to.
    DOUBLE JUMP: Guess what? You can double-jump. This allows you to jump farther in addition to your speed. If you jump off a high place you can also prevent falling damage by double jumping closer to the ground.
    POINT CAPTURING: Yep, you capture points twice as fast as any other class, so if your teammates have cleared an area of enemies, GET ON THE FREAKIN POINT, DUMBASS!
    RETREAT: If you decide your death is imminent, backpedal facing the enemy firing your pistol. NEVER run away with your back turned.
    SANDVICH? :If any other class picks up a Sandvich, they get 50 health. On the other hand, lucky you, you get 75. Again, if there is a burning medic around let them have it.

    CLASS SPECIFIC SECTION COMING SOON
     
  2. Darth Cyrax

    Darth Cyrax New Member

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    CLASS SPECIFIC SECTION
    YOU (SCOUT) VERSUS
    SCOUT: Not the best match up, generally your equal. The winner of this fight will be who can keep their crosshairs over the enemy better. I find that rather difficult when both of you are moving at the speed of light. Also, try not to strafe in one direction for too long or you become predicable. If you see him reloading his scattergun, make sure yours is loaded and go in for the kill. If your scattergun is empty and you think hes nearly dead, take the bat out ONLY if hes right next to you. Otherwise, use the pistol.
    Priority: Low-your other teammates will likely take care of this nuisance, hes not very important as most people cant play scout.

    SOLDIER: Did take your medicine? One of your worst enemies, the soldier will most likely kick your ass. Your weapon does more damage at close range? Well, guess what, so does his. And his does more. And he has more health. The only advantage you have is your speed. Use it to stay at a distance and annoy him with your pistol. Youd be a great distraction for the pyro w/backburner behind him Your only chance against this guy is to be opportunistic, if hes all out of rockets or distracted or low on health.
    Priority: Low-Youll likely die or take massive damage. Find another target.

    PYRO: Surprisingly well depending on the surroundings. This is one of the few guys you can weapon heckle affectively. Stay at MEDIUM range if hes got his flamethrower out. When he gets out his shotgun go in close. Make sure youve got ammo in your scattergun when you do this. Stay far away if you need to reload. NEVER EVER use the bat in this case.
    Priority: Medium-Poor pyro, no good medium or long range weapons and so much slower than you(But can be a SERIOUS problem to the rest of your team). You can take this guy on and usually survive if he doesnt surprise you.

    DEMOMAN: You can actually kill this guy too! His weapons may be able to kill you in one hit but none of them shoot straight. So STRAFE LIKE MAD!!! Dodge left and right and try to get behind him. If he starts lying down stickies get back (or wherever the stickies arent) and reload your scattergun or switch to pistol. As little as 2 stickies near you are fatal. Try to flank him or go around the stickies. If hes just lobbing grenades try to weapon heckle him, that is, get up close until he grabs his scrumpy bottle then get back. Of course, should he put down stickies get back.
    Priority: Medium- Can be taken advantage of if stupid, but smart demos can be challenging. He is a serious threat to your teammates. Extremely important not to run straight at, this makes you an easy grenade target.

    HEAVY: Dont even try. They will destroy you. Imagine a pyro with range. Then give it twice as much health and a grudge. You have no business taking on a heavy. The only exceptions being he is low on health AND alone AND not looking ANYWHERE NEAR you. That means you must be POSITIVE this bastard cant see you. Never even try to use the bat on this one. You will waste many-a-life trying to hear the scout say, EAT IT, FATTY!
    Priority: VERY Low-There is a 1/100 chance you can kill this heavy-feelin lucky?

    Engineer: Easy on their own. Imagine facing a slow scout. You win. But if hes got a sentry around that corner, dont even bother. You cant even handle a level 1 sentry, especially not if hes repairing it. The only exception being if he is far away and has left his stuff unsupervised and you can get a good angle on it; if the sentry has to rotate a while to shoot at you. Poke out, shoot and retreat. Wait a couple seconds for it to turn around again and repeat. Completely ineffective if an engineer is repairing it. Most non-moronic engineers will notice you breaking their stupid crap and come to do something about it, so you usually dont get this opportunity.
    Priority: Low-Theyre fodder on their own; hence not a threat and you are ineffective against a sentry gun. Kill em if no one else is trying and there is no one else of higher priority.

    Rest of this COMINIG SOON
     
  3. Darth Cyrax

    Darth Cyrax New Member

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    MEDIC: You want to kill this guy. He will make it impossible for you to kill anyone else. His medigun will prevent your targets death long enough that you will certainly die first. Therefore, TAKE THE MEDIC OUT FIRST. He sucks against you. The blutslager makes him a little harder to kill but you should get one-up on him as he switches from his medigun. Also, never let him ubersaw you; dont contribute to the problem.
    Priority: HIGH! - This guy is your #1 priority at ALL TIMES.

    SNIPER: Another easy kill for you, depending on the circumstances. Hes done for if hes zoomed in and he doesnt see you. Scattergun up the ass for poor sniper. Two shots and hes down. Otherwise, same as demo tactic accept add jumping and double jumping to the mix. STRAFE AND DOUBLE-JUMP LIKE MAD! Always try to do the second jump in a different direction than the first, or this will make you easier to track. And dont use your second jump too soon, or you wont control the rest of your long and PREDICABLE fall. Annoy him with the pistol at long range, switch to the scattergun when medium range or closer.
    Priority: High- Easily distracted and youre a hard target to hit. A good sniper (AIRchrist or Batman) may body shot kill you, but hopefully you distracted them long enough for your teammates to finish him.

    SPY: Second to the Pyro, you are the Spys WORST NIGHTMARE. Why you ask? YOURE FASTER THAN HE IS. So when he cloaks for his escape, beat him to where you think hes going and wait until his cloak runs out. Two scatterguns and youve owned his disguised ass. And dont be afraid to spy check with the scattergun. If you cant run through them, they are a spy.
    Priority: High-Not a threat to you, but a SERIOUS pain in the ass to your teammates so kill them when you see them.

    So here is the general priority of enemies 1st to last.
    1.Medic
    2.Spy
    3.Sniper
    4.Pyro
    5.Demoman
    6.Scout
    7.Engineer
    8.Soldier
    9.Heavy.

    Okay, I think Im mostly done now. I look forward to additional input.
     
  4. Hiroyuki Sakai

    Hiroyuki Sakai New Member

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    Here's a few thoughts of mine:

    Doublejump direction change: Against ANY player ALWAYS change direction on the second jump. Any decent soldier/demo/sniper/whoever will be ready to kill you on that predictable second jump. While jumping you can't control your movement, so mid-jump is actually one of the easiest times to kill any player. For scout that goes double, because a forward double jump creates a big predictable arc. Scouts are far easier to snipe on the second jump than they are at any other time.

    Doublejump to save your ass: Doublejump also resets your fall speed so you don't take fall damage. So, for example, if you leap off a high tower and jump again 2 feet off the ground you won't take any fall damage. Once you get instinctual at doing this you'll never take fall damage again as a scout, which is helpful for chasing runners or escaping a rush.
     
  5. Darth Cyrax

    Darth Cyrax New Member

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    Good points, Hiroyuki. I think I already mentioned the avoiding fall damage, but you cleared up any confusion due to my poor grammar.
     
  6. (MP)Ryan

    (MP)Ryan New Member

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    Couple things you missed:

    ***THE GOLDEN RULE OF THE EFFECTIVE SCOUT*** - KNOW WHEN TO SWITCH TO ANOTHER CLASS! This means you must be bright enough to figure out when you have become a liability to your team and switch to something useful. Further to that, the following considerations:

    1. You have no business playing Scout (currently; with a weapons upgrade this might change) when defending on any map when there are more than 8 people on the server. EVER. This applies doubly to payload maps (Gold Rush. Badwater, etc).
    2. Scouts are useful during the first few minutes of the round when their speed and capping ability really shines through. Beyond that, Scouts are only useful in large open spaces where their speed allows them to make a real nuisance of themselves.
    3. I mentioned the Rule of 8 above. To clarify: In small games where there are relatively few players, Scout is probably the most versatile class in the game. Your speed allows you to cap or defend areas with relative ease; your scattergun can kick the daylights out of any player that wanders your way (as they are typically working alone); your pistol harasses everyone at range, and yes you can even duel a sniper with it when there are few many people; and there is nothing more rewarding than batting a solo enemy into oblivion after putting a few scattergun shots their way. You are a tiny player but a huge pain in the ass when there aren't many people playing.
    4. There should never, EVER, under any circumstances whatsoever be more than one scout on a team if more than 2 minutes have elapsed into the round, in particular if you are on a full server. This rule applies absolutely to every Payload and CP map. CTF maps have more leeway.
    5. Scouts have no business on payload map attacking unless your team is rolling the enemy and has them stuck in their spawn. Otherwise, there are more useful classes you can play.
    6. If more than one player on your team tells you to switch to a more useful class, it means you should switch to a more useful class because you are violating the golden rule: you have become a liability rather than an asset. It does not mean you should backtalk them because "OMG I always play scout and I'm an awesome scout and this team just sucks." No. The game is called Team Fortress 2. Be an asset to your team.

    Some of you may notice there is a somewhat anti-Scout attitude to my post. That isn't actually true - Scout is a great class in limited circumstances, and can be a real boost to the team. Unfortunately, there are a great many asshats who can't tell when a Scout (a good Scout, mind you) is useful and when it drags down the rest of the team. Said people are strongly encouraged to memorize the Golden Rule and apply it frequently.

    Indications of when it's time to switch classes:
    1. You are told, by anyone, that you are not being an effective team player.
    2. Two or more players on your team tell you to switch to another class.
    3. There are more than 2 sentry guns and/or Heavies on the opposing team.
    4. There is only one Medic (or worse, no Medic) on your team but more than 9 players total (and guess what class you should switch to).
    5. Your kill/death ratio for the game is less or equal to than 0.50
    6. Your justification for remaining scout is all the points you have/are accumulating (this is called point whoring; refer to point #1)

    In short: By all means play Scout, but don't be married to the class and know when you're not helping the team any.

    Cyrax's guide is a good one to help people become effective scouts, though.
     
  7. Darth Cyrax

    Darth Cyrax New Member

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    Thanks for the input (MP)Ryan, I barely touched on the subejct of when to change class. One thing I can add is scouts can be useful defense also. If the enemy has destroyed all of your team's sentry guns or your engineers simply can't keep them up, scouts are useful for clearing the area of enemies. That's why both friendly and hostile sentry guns play a role in my Sentry Gun/Scout Theorem.
     
  8. Hiroyuki Sakai

    Hiroyuki Sakai New Member

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    I agree that people can overplay scout, and sucky people tend to overplay it. But the "rule of 8", and no more than 1 scout theory, are flatly wrong. On the dustbowl/gravelpit server there are often great times to go scout, especially multiple scouts who both flank.

    Defense on dustbowl2 is great for scouts that know how to play, depending on sentries.
    Defense on gravel pit, depending on sentry situation.
    Offense on gravel pit until both A & B are capped.

    Good scouts are quick to switch classes based on need, but there are most definitely and unquestionably circumstances where those "blanket" rules are false. You could argue optimal setups all day long, but there are often times when scouts can totally disrupt the reinforcement flow of full server CP maps that have open space (like gravelpit and dustbowl2), well past the 2 minute mark. Especially on gravel pit defense, I'd argue that a scout would fit into the most optimal full server setups.
     
  9. Darth Cyrax

    Darth Cyrax New Member

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    Generally speaking, I have to agree with Hiroyuki Sakai, scouts are useful especially after a friendly sentry falls on gravelpit, they can do alot for keeping the area under control until engineers rebuild. I'm not so sure how useful multiple scouts can be; the rule of 1 definitely applies to Warpath, but maybe not other maps. Then again, most people can probably be fulfilling more useful roles even on wide open maps like garvelpit that benefit the team more than having 2-3 or more scouts. But again, if someone tells you to switch classes, you'd better do it or you risked being kicked by the admins.
     
  10. (MP)Ryan

    (MP)Ryan New Member

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    Exactly. You can have as many medics as you have offensive players on a team and it will be nothing but beneficial. There is pretty much always a more beneficial class you can be playing that benefits the team more in a full server.

    Maybe with an update the Scout will become less of an individual class and more of a team player, but right now they simply are not beneficial compared with the advantages afforded by an extra medic, or member of another offensive or defensive class (particularly an extra soldier, demoman, or heavy).
     
  11. Hiroyuki Sakai

    Hiroyuki Sakai New Member

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    That's simply not true. No debate, no question.

    Case in point, just now on gravel pit defense Mc-ren and I were both scouts. We were running around the B cap area, picking off guys and drawing fire. We had like 6 people full time coming after us, and we tied up that entrance to C for minutes. We won the round, with him and I as #2 and #3. Absolutely 100% no doubt that we were best off in that situation as 2 scouts, and no medic/anything combo would have served the purpose better. It was pure team play, and it won the round.

    It's just not even a question. It's knowing how it works and seeing it in action, or theorycrafting because you're legitimately angry at badly played scouts. Well-played scouts are beneficial for the entire time on gravel pit defense (depending on sentry situation), and it's simply ridiculous to say that tossing in another medic would help.

    Honestly, this is a one-way discussion. I'm not guessing: when I see 4 guys running towards C (that include at least one medic), and I shoot once and they all come after me, and then I survive for 45 seconds and draw them all to the back of B ONLY because I'm a scout... that's sort of being a team player. If you think for 10 seconds about what actually constitutes team play, rather than some narrow "medic/offense combos rocking it!" conception of how to win gravel pit, then it's REALLY obvious that scouts are beneficial. Honestly, if I were to design the perfect gravel pit defense on a full server there would always be 1 scout. 2 is situational on playing a crappy team, which sort of happens in actual gameplay... rather than theorycrafted. Often removing enemy medics is far more important than having your own, and no class can fire and displace better than the scout.
     
  12. DemiGod

    DemiGod Guest

  13. sighmon

    sighmon Senior Server Admin
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    some of those jumps are pretty impressive. i want to play scout just to try a few out.
     
  14. ShogunBabalu

    ShogunBabalu New Member

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    scout battles on the Orange x3 server is fun, also killing the snipers who just sit against the far wall is a must ---pretty much taking their attention away from your slower teammates who are more prone to being sniped
     
  15. kief__catcher

    kief__catcher Server Admin
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    i completely agree with hiroyuki. in team fortress 2, the classes really are nearly perfectly balanced. any of the classes are valuable if they are played by people who are highly skilled with that class. if you have a really good scout, he can really shore up the offense or defense. any time he is facing opponents away from a sentry gun, if he is a good player, he can come out on top, or at least out of the situation alive, almost every time. especially on small teams a scout can make or break the game.

    scouts of course are most advantageous on wide-roaming maps where opponents can come from any direction, rather than a map like warpath which is more linear. but even on warpath a great scout can be a fantastic asset. there are a lot of people who play here, regulars and admins alike, who always bitch when there is a scout on warpath. the fact of the matter is, if the player is skilled at the class, then he is probably helping the team more than hurting. there may be other players who u might need to switch to demo or medic to take out guns, but a good scout who is doing his job is usually helpful. granted, most people who play scout are not very good at it, but when they are, i think that if they are playing the class properly, they're helping the team.
     
  16. Engrishman

    Engrishman Server Admin
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    Someone needs to mention that scouts have some of the fastest critting weapons in the game. And when you realize crits triple your damage per hit, you'll learn to respect them.

    Now, the reason I mention crits at all is because of the obscene rate of fire of all 3 of the scout weapons. You get crits per shot, unlike the heavy who gets crits in an ordered sequence of bullets, but because your weapons all fire ridiculously fast it's still something relevant to scouts.

    Certainly, the bat is a feeble weapon on its own but it's [relatively] quiet, meaning if you catch them unawares with the bat you won't give yourself away. Additionally, because the bat's rate of fire is some of the fastest in the game, it crits a lot more often.

    The pistol? Same as when the engineer uses it, it really shines when it starts critting, but it's more for chipping away at an already dying foe than anything. Also great for getaway sequences when you're being chased by an angry soldier.

    The scattergun. God. I hate fighting a scout that starts critting with a scattergun. One shot is enough to take a soldier down to about half his health, depending how close the scout is.

    Crits + scout == ARG THE PAIN. Winning formula to live by.

    (I realize relying on what people see as "lucky" crits is an unreliable approach, but hear me out. The crit system is NOT a random occurence. It's influenced by survivability and enemies killed, that is, the chances you get to crit rise exponentially the longer you stay alive after killing someone.

    In specific terms, your scattergun starts off with a 5% chance to crit. That's 5% per shot, or 1 crit every 20 shots. After killing someone, that percentile rises by approximately 5%. So if you kill about 4 to 5 people in quick succession it rises to a maximum of 20% crit rate. That's 1 in every 5 shots critting for three times the damage!

    This is also an additional incentive for really good scouts to refrain from kamikaze attacks, because the longer you survive the greater your chances to hit harder.

    Note: These figures apply to other classes as well. I just thought I'd mention them in the scout guide because their rate of fire makes seeing these crits more likely. Also, the scout hardly ever double or triple kills someone, and multiple kills from a single weapon like the rocket or sticky only increase your crit chances by 5%, not 10 or 15.)
     
  17. Sora

    Sora New Member

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    I tend to disagree a lot with the points made coming from a payload server aspect. Scouts are way more useful as an offensive class than a defensive on these. Defensively, the first point is about the only time a scout is useful. Later in the match if the attacking team doesn't have sentries to protect their teleporters, etc. a scout could wreak havoc.

    Offensively, a scout is good on payload maps if the defending team isn't set up. If you have succeeded in taking a point and a majority of your team is pushing the cart, a scout should run up and annoy the team. Sometimes you can get a group of players to chase after you instead of heading back to the cart. Also, you can easily take out dispensers that engineers are building to slow them down. Once the battle comes back a standstill, a scout is near useless.

    Or, if you see more of your team is going forward to prevent them from building, you as a scout need to get on the cart. You move the cart twice as fast, so on maps like Badwater where sometimes you may be one of two scouts..... you two should move the cart to the next cap point while everyone else clears the way.

    As a scout you should almost never take a teleporter. I say when there are 3 teleporters up, and there isn't a group of people who respawned with you, it could be safe to take a teleporter. You taking a teleporter as a scout and causing a Soldier/Heavy on your team to walk/wait just hurts your team.

    As for combat, if you can sneak up on a person, get as close as possible to pump them full of lead with the scattergun. Then once they notice you, start strafing and jumping around to avoid shots.

    Also it's good to switch to scouts just for short bursts if it could be useful. For example, if you just died and you know someone is running an uber into the enemy's base. Switching to a scout to push a cart/take a CP for a single life could give you that split second victory.
     
  18. wrathofbong

    wrathofbong New Member

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  19. Twane

    Twane New Member

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    I'd like to suggest something with the unlockables. This is how I play with the scout.

    FaN (Force a Nature) vs. Scattergun:

    Force a Nature: The FaN has TWO shots, 60% less ammo, 20% less spread, and 20% less damage. IMO, this gun is used if you want to come up to your enemies by suprising them. The FaN is near useless when you're not point blank or if the enemy knows you're there. The FaN also has a recoil-jumping ability when you fire it. So if you have the bat, you know what that means! Triple jump! this increases the scout's maneuverability by a lot. But if you have the sandman you still get a double jump while using this at the price of your ammo.

    Summarized: The FaN is best used for a stealthy kind of scout gameplay, best used when coming up behind and enemy at point blank and pumping them full of lead. It also has a recoil-jumping ability when you fire it, granting access to the triple jump if you don't have the sandman.

    Scattergun: The scattergun is best used on offense, due to it's fast reloading time, a lot of shells, and fast firepower. But more ammo spread = less damage. The scattergun is used for distracting/harassing the enemy more than simply suprising them. Use the scattergun, if you're more of a "rush-in and kill everything" kind of scout.

    ---

    Bonk! Energy drink vs. Pistol:

    Bonk!: The energy drink has primarily only 3 uses:
    1. Getting past enemy territory safely and finding an ambush point
    2. Getting through enemy sentryguns
    3. Making an escape when you feel you're in a tough situation

    The only cons about the energy drink is that
    1. You can't shoot with it?
    2. You get a "Crash"(slowing) debuff after the effects of it deplete.

    Pistol: The pistol primarily succeeds in short to medium range of combat. It's primarily used as a finishing weapon, once the enemy has run away out of the range of your scattergun. Or to "edge" enemy sentryguns with once they haven't seen you.

    Summarized: Use the pistol if you want to edge enemy sentry guns, or if you want an extra weapon in your arsenal.

    Use the Energy drink if you want to get by enemy territory safely, make escapes when in tough situations, and get by sentryguns.


    --

    Sandman vs Aluminum Bat

    Sandman: The sandman is useful for only one thing: Stunning enemy (INCLUDING UBERCHARGED ENEMIES) For a short amount of time, depending on how far the ball travels when it hits. The only cons that the sandman has is that it arcs when you hit it. Just like the flaregun. You need to either pickup your ball/ or let the meter recharge once you hit your ball at an enemy. You also lose your double-jump once you equip it in your loadout.

    Aluminum Bat: Best used as ANOTHER finisher weapon once your ammo on both your main weapon, and secondary is depleted. Be wary though, people may try to melee you when you try to bat them to death. If that's the case back up and pump the poor sap full of lead with your scattergun/FaN.

    Summarized: The sandman does well when trying to break up ubers and to make a getaway, at the cost of your doublejump ability. Best used when playing defensively. The bat is used when trying to annoy the fuck out of people, best used when you're also on defense or offense and you're trying to distract the other team, or when both of your weapons run dry.
     
  20. ink

    ink Active Member

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    so whats the golden rule, again?