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Orange map tweaks??

Discussion in 'Team Fortress 2' started by Al-Truistic, Feb 23, 2009.

  1. Al-Truistic

    Al-Truistic Head Admins
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    Being as the Orange map is perhaps the hardest map to win, would it be possible to make a few subtle changes to give an edge to a particular side.

    The reason I think this might work, is because I have seen too many times either teams camping on the roof and making no attempt for the 4th point, or even after losing your 4th point, teams just camping their spawn and not pushing out.

    So, that being said, would it be possible (or practical, for that matter) to give a bonus to the team that takes the other teams 2nd point? In particular a longer respawn time, say 10 seconds or so to the team losing their 2nd point. That way the last point could be more easily captured because the defending team cant instantly respawn within firing distance of the capture point.

    I think it would give more importance to defending/capturing that 4th point.

    What do you think?

    Please discuss among yourselves as I am now very ferclempt!

    Al
     
  2. Capella

    Capella New Member

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    The server is very successful "as is". I like the fact that you have to use strategy and timing to win the last two CPs on the map, it makes it so much better when you do win it.

    Because the last CP is in directly front of the enemy spawn point, the only way to win is to crush the opposing team.

    As to motivating people to WANT to win it, it takes players to lead and motivate people to put down the sniper rifle and go attack/support class. Orange and 2fort are both maps that attract snipers. When a good player shows up and expects people to go into win mode, some do, and then others follow. Motivation is tricky. and we are talking Orange, a map that is not one that people think of as a winnable map.

    So frankly, to me the game is not on the map, it is in the heads of the players. You win the map when you motivate the team you are on to want to win it, re-class to what is needed, and all point their guns in the same direction.

    That is why there are no class limits on snipers, or modifications to the map. Go win it on it's terms, and enjoy the sweetness of that win.

    My two cents anyway,

    Capella
     
  3. Al-Truistic

    Al-Truistic Head Admins
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    As you know I play a lot on orange, and I do enjoy the challenge. I also agree that getting your team motivated is key, and I will have to work harder personally on that.

    That being said I can not tell another player to: "move that entrance or __________"

    All I can do is suggest, and many times nothing comes of it. Too many times we will have 3 or 4 snipers standing at point 1 doing almost nothing. Some people just won't cooperate. That is OK, it is just a game. I was only thinking is there were more motivation to push, more people might be more aggressive. It is a very easy map to turtle on.

    I don't want anyone to assume there was anything wrong with the map, I am just thinking outside the box.

    Personally I am not the "team leader" type, as you know I will drop into a support class at the drop of the hat. Perhaps I was hoping more people would do the same.

    Al
     
  4. Capella

    Capella New Member

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    Al,

    I don't tell people what to do either, I suggest how it can be done. If players are grieving then they may get the boot, but that is about as far as making any one play a specific way as Orange gets. We do have some guys that do tell other players what to do, and they are some times successful. But frankly the majority rules, and sometimes they just want to turtle. I usually point out that snipers have a better time if we hold the center point, that tends to give them a carrot, beyond that it gets tough.

    I can either find another server where they do like to win, or stick around and see who/what/changes/happens. When you get frustrated with orange because of turtling try Warpath, dustbowl, or one of the PL servers things are far different there usually, and support classes are appreciated.

    Capella
     
  5. Hills

    Hills Server Admin
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    I have played a lot of Orange and prefer it stay the way it is. This is one of our more busier servers and I see no reason to change it.
     
  6. Shwigity

    Shwigity Guest

    Will Darth's version of Orange ever pop up on one of our servers? I think it could still attract the Sniping bunch, but get a new crowd wanting to play it as well as it's much less turtling oriented.
     
  7. evolvd

    evolvd New Member

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    It would be cool to have some different versions of orange on the server, bring it up with a vote maybe? blah blah blah
     
  8. Proven

    Proven Community Veteran

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    I enjoy the orange maps for their simplicity and length. The really long drawn out maps can be fun. Our orange server falls in the category of "Ain't Broke" because it is full most all the time. Players could be sensitive to too much change.
     
  9. kief__catcher

    kief__catcher Server Admin
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    i was under the impression when the orange server first went up that we did have a few different orange maps to be rotated on it. but i never play on that server. however if DC's version gets put up maybe i'm pop my head in every once in a while (only to get blown off by one of the many snipers).
     
  10. bclose

    bclose Senior Admins
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    Savage once told me that there are other maps loaded on the orange server, but it defaults to x3 and no one ever votes to switch it.
     
  11. Capella

    Capella New Member

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    I think the other maps were removed, rtv does not work there in any case.

    Capella
     
  12. Darth Cyrax

    Darth Cyrax New Member

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    Probably because no one ever voted to switch it; there was no point in keeping the other oranges loaded if they'd never get used, so now orange x3 is the only map on.
     
  13. djmafia

    djmafia Server Admin
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    I agree with Cappella. It is definitely a pain in the ass to get the last point. However, with the correct people on the team, i.e. people who talk a lot and "suggest" to people what they need to do, AND having people who are willing to switch to the needed class at any time, it is very possible to win the map.

    (Neglecting the unbelievable scout rush we had the other night that allowed us to come back from having only our last point to all of the points except the enemies last point, which I will put up a video of soon :) ) A vast mixture of classes is needed to win the map.

    Good engies are essential to ensure that teleporters and dispensers are moved up as the front line moves up.

    Medics and ubers are needed to take out the last bit of resistance at the final point.

    You need bold snipers who move up with the troops and keep the enemy pressed into their base.

    Good scouts can harass snipers and capture points as well as run past defenses and harass the enemy spawn point.

    Clever spies are needed to harass snipers and engies to keep the enemy distracted. They can also be used to scout out enemy defenses to determine the correct strategy.

    Heavy troopers are needed, paired with medics, to keep pyros and soldiers back. If the heavy has natascha, even better, it keeps the scouts, pyros and soldiers from getting too close.

    Pyros are great shock troops and their compression blast can make even the most determined uber, fail!

    Ah yes, the demoman, my favorite. He can demo jump up to the third point and capture it or take out any engie camp that is on the roof. Also, the demo is crucial to destroying fortifications at cp's.

    However, as was stated earlier, COMMUNICATION is essential to winning the game. Having a few guys on the team who speak up, give intel updates, locations of spies, sentries, teleporters, etc. That is the great thing about the map, it requires a HIGH level of teamwork to win. Plans must be coordinated and players on each team need to think ahead about what the next move will be. This dynamic makes the map a lot of fun if you have a talkative and cooperative team.

    It is a great feeling to come back from almost losing to capture the 3rd and 4th points. That last point is a bitch, but when you do get it, and you hear that song, you know which one I mean, it is a great feeling! :grin:
     
  14. Capella

    Capella New Member

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    Good points.

    One last point, and it is a big one, you have to push though fast, you cannot stop and build out.

    You have to catch and keep the other team in whatever mode they were when they lost their third point. Effectively three timed and coordinated Ubers of heavies and pyros do the job, but if you stop, then the other team changes classes and can counter just about anything you do. So speed, and that is very hard to communicate and get agreement on, when you push for the third point you don't stop until you win.

    Ideally the winning team would build out on the lower part of the building, and thus not have to move anything up. The Uber teams would contain the enemy team while point 4 is capped behind them, then they push to point 5 and win. There are just a few minutes of confusion for the enemies, as they are thinking "Are we going to push back to point 3, or defend point points 2 and 1? They will always try to push back, therefore for a short amount of time they are not at all prepared to defend their final point or break out. Once you see spies and heavies pouring out, it is too late.

    Capella