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New Orange map feedback.

Discussion in 'Team Fortress 2' started by Shadowstorm, Mar 29, 2009.

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  1. Shadowstorm

    Shadowstorm New Member

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    The new Orange map has some serious issues that I'd like to raise and subsequently address.

    Part of the beauty of the original Orange X3 (not the new beta revision) was in its simplicity. It is an incredibly simple map to grasp and practice on. With this beta version, it loses this touch. It loses a lot, really. There are way too many underground tunnels to navigate. It's all very loosely joined and it ends up being this nearly unrecognizeable mess that's, quite frankly, hard to ignore. Furthermore, there are way to many small med bottles scattered about around the map. It's astonishing, really. These med bottles should be few and far between so as to encourage Medic play. There's also another variable to consider in this particular situation: it makes it harder for Pyros and other chaos-causing players to kill. Much harder. Pyros, by nature, are a chaos-causing class. When you light a whole bunch of people aflame, med bottles, kits, and packs, are the Pyro's worst enemy and to have all these med bottles lying around is very frustrating.

    Furthermore, the metal boxes (usually found near the med bottles), are inadequate for sufficiently building structures. They only give you 10-15 metal. This does not lend well to the "play hard, play fast" style of Orange. Another thing to note is that the respawn doors are now blocked from enemy intrusion. This was and continues to be a very fine quality of Orange X3, and I would hate for this new revision to make this map yet another generic custom map. And, lastly, I didn't see any health regen/metal giving stations in Respawn. I don't know if this was overlooked or what, but simply put, this is inexcusable.

    Not all is lost on this map. There are some redeeming qualities to it. I do like the use of elevation. There's lots of above-ground hiding spots (but they are not well defined, IMHO.).

    The whole reason why I subscribe and continue to subscribe to NH is solely because of this map. It is my hope that there are some serious changes made to this map as to make it more playable and less cluttered. It's way too busy. A lot of charm was lost when the creator of this beta decided to put too many things (structures, walls, etc) in the empty spaces surrounding the center tower. In short, it's extremely confusing.

    I suggest this thread be the official constructive criticism thread of the beta.

    Thanks.
     
  2. djmafia

    djmafia Server Admin
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    I wonder if this is the one I thought was too complicated. Hmm...when I'm done with hw I'll have to check it out. I swear we should be using the Gib$ru$ version.
     
  3. GlaDOS V1.09

    GlaDOS V1.09 New Member

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    Dude, we have been play testing/beta testing this map for MONTHS.

    1. Darth as TOLD to put more health packs in
    2. Where is all this metal on the Orig. Orange? I don't think Ive really seen all that much metal "to build sufficient structures".
    3. Spawn is closed. As far as I can tell the only reason Orange is low grav is to get back into spawn.
    4. Pyro is also a good ambush class, come up behind ppl in a tunnel and you own their asses. Also, pyro is not a good class facing an enemy down from a great distance.


    Its not going to be Orange X3 man, this is Darth's work.
     
  4. Shadowstorm

    Shadowstorm New Member

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    Hey listen, I'm just telling you how I see it. I don't mean to come across as a douchebag but I'm just putting it out there. The map is way too confusing. I don't know how you guys can beta test this for months and not see that.
     
  5. kief__catcher

    kief__catcher Server Admin
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    well anytime you play a new map you won't know how to get around in it that well. you say it is confusing, but you only say that by comparison to orange x3, not to other maps. if you play this version maybe 10 full rounds or so it will no longer be confusing.

    and considering your criticism of the small metal packs, there are no metal packs i can think of in regular orange, so i don't see how that criticism stands up based on your orange purist stance.

    the purpose of this version of orange is to make all the classes not only playable, but necessary to win the map. it definitely can use some thoroughly run-throughs and playtests to gauge the overall concensus of what needs improving, and as a beta it probably has room for improvement. but as for the confusing bit, that will vanish with time played.

    constructive criticism should definitely be embraced for this map, but if you are going to criticize you have to understand where the map-maker is coming from - that is, to boost and encourage teamwork in a map-style that is frequently utterly devoid of teamwork. that accounts for many of the changes that you have trouble with.
     
  6. Proven

    Proven Community Veteran

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    The idea of a beta is that this isn't the finished product and I think you are taking this WAY to seriously. The original X3 map has little or NO metal or health packs at all. The only way to get health was to re-enter spawn or hope someone was playing medic vs the thousands of snipers. Or have an engineer building dispensers.

    You do come across as a douche bag. Primarily because you are posting this like you have been mapping for years. Do you know what you are talking about at all? Some of what you mention is a part of game dynamics. We don't want too much metal to be available because then the whole map would be a turtle fest. We don't want too much ammo because the heavies would be playing like they were terminators. Health packs (even little ones) are meant to supplement medics in the case of putting out the fires. By countering the Pyro's flame in this way you help increase the pace of the map.

    There has to be balance, and I think that is what you have an issue with. I guess I feel a little sorry for you because you think that every map must be "Leet Shadow Storm Maximum Spy Roxorz" or something. Not every map is an UBER SPY/PYRO/ENGINEER map and mentioning that you enjoy being able to spawn camp on the X3 version by jumping into their spawn further enhances my belief that you are a douche bag. The map is low grav to get back into spawn...not to let spies spawn camp.

    You don't like this map for reasons that apply to your specific play style. That same style does not apply for everyone. Saying
    says you don't understand that people play differently and look for different things in maps. Darth is making this map to match his vision and he is a member of this community.

    While your feedback is appreciated, your tone could have been improved. I know my tone has sucked, but I couldn't help it after reading your pompous remarks.
     
  7. Shadowstorm

    Shadowstorm New Member

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    What people like about the Orange X3 is PRECISELY because it has hours of stalemate competition. WE LIKE that. It makes for good practice when teams are facing off in the middle. The new Orange map doesn't have to go in the direction that you are describing. It's perfect the way it is.

    No shit?

    I'm speaking generally here and I'm coming from the view of ALL classes, not just the class that I personally play the most. Learn from Valve's map makers and testers. I don't think saying "the map is fucking confusing" applies to anyone's playing style, let alone mine. You don't see them producing maps that are way too fucking cluttered for their own good, now do you?
     
  8. Savage

    Savage Head Admins
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    Jesus Christ, people...take a breath. No one's saying this map is going to replace Orange X3....but since Darth put alot of work into it, I'm willing to give it a limited run so we can get some feedback.

    For every one person that hates a map, there's another that loves it. I personally think Orange and 2fort are pretty much the worst maps ever created, but obviously, not all people feel that way. Further...if the map were really as bad as you're trying to convince us, then server would be fucking empty. Since it's been on that map now for over an hour, and the server sits at 32 players as I write this, obviously, there are some people enjoying it.
     
  9. Shwigity

    Shwigity Guest

    When exactly did the beta go public or was there a playtest I missed?

    Saying you dislike teamwork and enjoy stalemating with no end in sight doesn't really make for a good argument.

    And also, I played Spy most of the time during those playtests, and I found it a plenty of fun and worked well as Spy with places to drop from above at. Of course it's hard to get to first spawn now, but spawn camping (maybe not as Spy, but as other classes) is still doable, especially at the 2nd spawn as a Demo shooting stickies from the opening in the 2nd floor.
     
  10. GlaDOS V1.09

    GlaDOS V1.09 New Member

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    I went in and played a while. Everyone I spoke to ENJOYED it. No one was complaining. As a matter of fact when it came up to vote for a new map, and the only choice was X3 normal, ppl were like .... what a choice :/

    EDIT:

    It went back to regular orange. RICK ROLL. No one wanted to play it. It is now back on Darth's Orange.
     
  11. Shadowstorm

    Shadowstorm New Member

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    You guys are so fucking defensive. I'm just offering some comments here. You can choose to take it or leave it.

    As far as that "what a choice" remark goes, it's the same thing as having a new class update released: everyone goes to that class. When there's a new update to an old map, expect the same thing. This is not a hard concept to grasp.
     
  12. GlaDOS V1.09

    GlaDOS V1.09 New Member

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    Dude... read my edit.

    I have seen updates to maps where people would immediately leave because the update was that bad. Anyone remember Blackmesa? V1 was AWESOME! (except for that little point problem) V2 came out, and there is not one person in NH who liked v2.

    As a matter of fact that's how I met Sheik, hamlet and J-Sakes if I'm not mistaken. I still miss that map :(

    Anyway the point is, not matter how new or shiny a map is, if it is TERRIBLE, people will LEAVE.
     
  13. Shadowstorm

    Shadowstorm New Member

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    McDonalds fucking blows, but you still see people eating that shit up, don't you?
     
  14. djsartre

    djsartre New Member

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    I think what Shadowstorm was trying to do was start a discussion on the new Orange map. I dont think he was trying to be a douchebag. I also think that he makes quite a few good points. The never ending games were (not at first) fun because in order to win the previous orange it did take a lot of teamwork. And patience. It was quite fun to jump into the enemy spawn and set everything ablaze. :lol: However the original orange map was definitely VERY sniper friendly. But as you played it you learned ways around that. ( EX.- Tell Shadow to go kill that GD sniper... lol)

    I think the new map is a pretty good map. I must admit it was a little disorienting at first however as I played a little while I started to get the general layout in my head. Its definitely more balanced than the previous orange as far as advantages to certain classes. And I must admit it does look pretty cool.

    As Far as the metal and health drops... well there weren't any in the original map so I cant really complain there. I do see shadowstorm's points and agree with quite a few of them. I think given time and fine tuning this map could be an acceptable backup for Orange X3. While I will say I prefer the original orange a little more. But who knows... soon this could be my new love. :razz:

    This could be a good thread for negatives and positives on the new map.
     
  15. GlaDOS V1.09

    GlaDOS V1.09 New Member

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    Uh...... huh..... :roll:
     
  16. djmafia

    djmafia Server Admin
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    Just put the damn Gib$ru$ version up on rotation. Ask Scarlet Blu, I sent him a copy of it. It is great! :grin:

    I'll be on later to check the new one out, if it's still being played.
     
  17. A. Bettik

    A. Bettik VIP Supporter
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    My sentiments about Orange_x3 exactly! I realize that a lot of people like to practice sniper/spy/scout on Orange_x3 (even though "practicing" for regular play on a low grav map isn't entirely realistic). The map is still on the server. The server is still staying consistently full with Darth's edit on the server as well. If it continues to remain popular, it will probably remain in the rotation, but I doubt it will ever fully replace Orange_x3. I'm sorry if you get upset because Orange_x3 will potentially not be the map that's being played when you join at any given time. The masses will decide which map gets played. Rock the vote!

    I think the reason most people are getting defensive with you, btw, is because your posts about Darth's map don't seem to me to be constructive criticism with any motive other than getting the map off the server. I get the impression that the changes/fixes you want to see on Darth's map are those that turn it entirely back in to the original Orange_x3.
     
  18. Shadowstorm

    Shadowstorm New Member

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    I only have two suggestions, A. Bettik: remove all health packs and metal from the map except in Respawn. Secondly, make the map WAY less cluttered. There's shit strewn about everywhere, especially in the tunnels. There's nowhere to go if you're caught in one of them with a Pyro. That Pyro is basically guaranteed a kill. Keep the elevation, but remove all the shit near the tower.

    The difference between X3 and this is like the difference between night and day for me. It's not my intention to shit on the map creator. It is my intention, however, to point out the flaws as well as offering constructive criticism and suggestions on how to fix and improve things ... something, you know, you're supposed to do in a beta.

    Orange is supposed to be an intentionally simple map. I don't know why the map creator decided to take it in this direction.
     
  19. Rogue

    Rogue Guest

    I like the new orange map, darth's map, and I'd like to see it stay in the rotation, so that's it's similar to the Goldrush/Badwater server. It gets boring after a while to just play one map over and over again, sort of like Warpath, so it's nice that we at least have some choices.

    There are, however, things that I like and don't like about the new orange map. I love the elevation, and that we now have more cover. And I also love that the spawns are closed off, although I personally never really had a problem with that before. On the other hand, the tunnels around the spawns are way too complex, and like people have said before, it's pretty lame to have pyros and heavies camping around the corners or in the tunnels, waiting for you to get out. I actually find this new change to be worse when it comes to spawncamping compared to the old one.

    As for the medpacks and metal, I don't really care. I'd almost say there was none of that on the original map, so it's fine with me that we have some more of that now.

    I think the map would be super perfect, if all the tunnel systems and such were concentrated around the capture points instead of around the spawnpoints. That way it might be harder to cap the points, but not difficult to get out of your spawn. Otherwise we just end up having a Cranetop map where people who play it "right" go and camp the other teams spawn while capping. And I personally don't think that's how any map is intended to be played.
     
  20. Shadowstorm

    Shadowstorm New Member

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    The thing about Orange X3 is that Engineers had to largely rely on fallen weapons from blood baths near the tower to upgrade their structures or they would have to return to their respawn. This is a perfectly acceptable situation and should not be fucked with. The metal packs need to go, as well as the med bottles. All of it.

    It is obvious that it was the intention of the map creator to limit spawn camping, but what's up with all those underground tunnels? Those are a gold mine for camping and I can guarantee you that. The map as a whole needs to be trimmed down significantly. Afterwords, I can see it as a sufficient backup to X3.
     
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